20 Responses to “Worse then educationally empty”

1. Tina Says:
   May 6th, 2007 at 11:33 am     +0

   Excellent. College is not for everyone, and also the attitude that those who went or go to college are better or superior to those who did not is also wrong. there is NOTHING wrong with learning trades.. skills and talents that college cannot train for or teach.

   some people have a natural aptitude for working on cars, they certainly do not need a doctorate to do that. then there are those who are interested in the food industry, a bachelors in business is perfectly suitable for that job, in the interim working in and knowing the industry is a good way to go, and perhaps taking classes while working.

   too many people beleive that college is an extention of high school (that is one expensive extention), that ALL kids must immediately go to college once they graduate high school. for some that is good, but that is a very few. Others a year or two of work is a better option to learn some real world apprecaition, instead of those wasted first 2 years of college that most kids end up doing.

   Other option, which i find interesting that people talk about this option as something negative. Taking the 1st two years in a community college. They cost far less, and you will learn nothing different then you would in the higher price univesity. Plus the credits are transferable. After those 1st twoyears if the kid has not bailed out and wants to continue they certainly can transfer to the desired school for their desired degree.

   Again the main thing is college is NOT the answer for everyone, NOT everyone should go immediately following their senior year of high school. I DO think kids should work for at least a year following high school to find their own barings, learn what it islike to pay their own way, etc. The respect for honest work, the respect for money, etc.. those are things college can not teach and are invaluable!

2. Paul Says:
   May 6th, 2007 at 3:20 pm     +0

   Overall good comments, but there are some unaddressed problems. First of all, it is very hard to switch tracks. Usually, that means at least a year of learning things that you should have learned in the previous year. Secondly, it costs more to have adequate vocational training available at a high school. Despite this, I still think that it is a good idea.

   I have several friends from Germany, and apparently that country uses a system very similar to what you are describing. My friends have even commented to me that they don’t understand why tradesmen are looked down upon by highly educated people. I have a masters in Physics, but that doesn’t mean that I look down on my mechanic. I couldn’t do what he does just like he couldn’t do what I do. College is not for everyone, and for many it is a very costly waste of time.

   I do not agree with Tina’s comments about community colleges. When I was an undergrad, there were several physics majors who had transferred from a nearby junior college. They were WAY behind those of us who had been prepared for the physics program at the university. In many cases, they even had to go back and retake classes that they had already taken at the ju-co.

   I would like to bring up something that makes me very angry, and should be changed immediately. I HATE the idea of no child left behind, and the idea the some failing students is a negative reflection on the teacher. These concepts have led to a watered down education that moves at the pace of the slowest students. I had bad grades when I attended public school. It wasn’t because of any lack of ability, but because the classes moved so slow that I quickly lost interest and stopped participating. In my opinion, if a teacher is doing his/her job, some students will fail. Teachers who simply usher along slower students are hurting the students themselves as well as the class.

   This brings up another point. If we were to reform our school system, it would have to be a radical reform. No half measures. After all, if the academic education was left the same, and vocational tracks were added, my grades definately would have landed me in the vocational track, even though I really belonged in an academic track.

   Finally, computers. High school students are not mature enough to use personal laptops responsably. Chad, the article clips and your comments made me laugh out loud. Who didn’t know that that was going to happen? The educational board apparently.

   By the way, I am one of those highly qualified individuals from the community who would love to teach part time if given the opportunity (my high school science teachers were TERRIBLE!).

3. Tina Says:
   May 7th, 2007 at 2:16 pm     +0

   Paul thank you for such a wonderful response!

   The no child left behind is BS.. and my senior year of high school had me bored to tears. I asked the teachers for more work, they could not do that.. cause they could not give the same to other students. I attended class once a week and made honor society, how sad is that? and kids who also graduated couldnot spell the word “though”.. i could also extend this to one of my brothers, who can not spell my name (and tina is all my name is, it is not short for anything). He graduated high school. definitely it should not be the teachers fault if the students fail, the whole system desperatelly needs an overhaul. and people do need to have more respect for people who work trade jobs. They are by no means less people, they have a talent that just did not require a college degree.. their work is still very important, and should be respected.

   i am sorry that you did not agree with my community college comment.. that is geared toward the majority of high school kids who go right from high school to college.. who do not know what they want to do, and they DO waste those 1st two years of college. There are those who do know what they want to do, but those are the very few & far between.. and for those i would definitely choose a school that would cater to their major. But it is the masses i refer to, those who mommy and daddy are footing the bill, and now the kids are out on the loose with no supervision.. those 1st two years end up getting wasted as they change their major or just screw around.

   Again Paul.. great comments.. thank you very much for sharing!

4. Paul Says:
   May 9th, 2007 at 7:45 pm     +0

   Tina,

   I respect your opinion, but I still feel that if someone is going to college, they should go to a university if possible. I was a part of the majority that you were talking about who don’t know what they want to do, and screw off their first 1-2 years. In fact, I flirted with dropping out and becoming a tradesman. I was good at math and interested in science, so I took a physics course and LOVED it. It was primarily due to a good instructor who kindled curiosity. In the end, at least half of my physics professors were excellent. I also had great math professors. When I transferred to a larger university for graduate study, the instructors were even better. By comparison, my friends from the ju-co said that their professors were uninterested and downright lowsy. My mom went back to school recently, taking some classes from a ju-co and some from a university. She had a similar experience as my friends. If I had gone to a ju-co, chances are that I would be a construction worker right now rather than a physicist.

   My brother is graduating high school next week :) When he was deciding on schools, he was offered a baseball scholarship by a community college. I STRONGLY urged him against accepting the offer. He took my advice, and now he is planning to attend a university with no scholarship. I would hate to have to watch him flounder around trying to transfer to a university having been underprepared by the ju-co. People who want to go to college should attend a four year school. Those who don’t want to go to college should go to a trade school. I don’t see much use for the 13th grade (community college).

   By the way, I’m glad you enjoyed my post.

5. Damo Says:
   May 25th, 2007 at 5:12 pm     +0

   I’d say, on average, that folks who go to college turn out better than those who do not. Numbers don’t lie — a BS degree is worth more than a HS diploma. A Masters is worth more than a BS degree. On average. Studies show this. The numbers always vary (of course) but they always follow the same trend… High School Education

6. Damo Says:
   May 25th, 2007 at 5:14 pm     +0

   I’d say, on average, that folks who go to college turn out better than those who do not. Numbers don’t lie — a BS degree is worth more than a HS diploma. A Masters is worth more than a BS degree. On average. Studies show this. The numbers always vary (of course) but they always follow the same trend… High School Education earns less than a BS Degree which earns less than a MS Degree which earns less than a PhD.

   Of course this is spread over the population of folks so OF COURSE there are those people with high school diplomas living in 100 million mansions. Just as there are PhDs working for crap software companies and not making a dime. The reality here is that they are outside the norm — and don’t really count in this conversation.

   Because of this my kids will be “forced” to go to college right out of High School and if they succeed they will make more, on average, then their peers who decide to mow lawns for a living. If college isn’t for them at least I gave them the opportunity.

   I do agree with Tina’s comment on teaching kiddies the value of money — this is a very important lesson. Something that college WILL teach if you paid for it like I did.

7. Paul Says:
   May 25th, 2007 at 8:02 pm     +0

   Damo,

   My brother in law just “finished” his second year at a university and he is still considered a freshman by credits. He is paying his way through, and racking up student loans in the process. He has no idea what he wants to do. I suspect that he will eventually drop out, work some crap job, and live for many years under the burden of repaying loans. He should have taken some time to get his head straight before going to college. His parents would not allow this, and now he is in a pretty bad situation.

8. Chad Says:
   May 26th, 2007 at 8:43 am     +0

   My point is like Paul’s: many people will benefit from college, and benefit to the point that they can make college an investment, but one that needs paid back. But many more either need to wait to figure out what they are good for in life before going, or spend a coupla years in the military to “grow up” or go to a technical/trade school. Perfectly good money in in most skilled careers, and much less needs to be paid back. What good is making another 3-5k$ a year if all of that and more goes to paying back student loans for 10 years? Those are they years that you have to be investing in your 401k instead.

   Average pay for an electrician grade III (non-master) is 51k$. An average carpenter is 44k$. A medical assistant salary with nothing more than a couple months training is over 30k$.

   I still cannot wrap my head around social workers, who all need masters and doctorates just to get a job that makes 25-35k$ a year. That’s what, 2/3rds of their income going to pay back student loans? I have a hard time believing that the average social worker needs more than an associates degree that is highly focused to what they need to know.

   Even worse, how many women get teaching degrees only to quit within the first two years because it sucks, they now have a husband, and are having kids. My sister who has a teaching degree and is in her first two years of teaching told me the actual number is staggering. The average teacher salary is 47k$. That is pretty good money, up there with electrician and carpenter. But how many years to pay back the average student loan of 19,237$?

   I think that the skew that means college grads make more is that only certain jobs such as financial advisor, stock trader, CxO, and such who make ridiculous amounts of money. Compare that to stoned out hippies, the chronically unemployable, and the state of Arkansas. Maybe I’m wrong, but it would be interesting to see removing the extremes. Is there a survey out there that removed anyone making over 120k$ (Doctors and above) and < 20k$ (something is wrong besides just having a HS diploma)?

9. Damo Says:
   May 26th, 2007 at 10:13 am     +0

   As for removing the extremes you have to be very careful here. As rich as we are as a nation (collectively) we aren’t very rich individually.

   There was a site I ran into a few years back that plotted you against the mean income of the population. You’d be surprised just how LITTLE you have to make in order to hop right up to the top 10% of the nation income-wise. Or even the top 5% of the nation….

   The average teacher makes 47k a year — their 19k student loan will be paid off in 10 years unless they choose to extend it past that. Bringing home about 2.7k a month should enable them to pay their 170$ student loan payment each month.

   The question you have to ask yourself is this…would you pay 170$ a month to make 47k a year or pay nothing (or hardly nothing) to make 25k? Lets not even talk about the typical benefits package you get compared to those in “trade” jobs. That is easily worth 12k to 15k a year for a decent program — I’ve worked the “trade” job scene (years ago) and you were lucky to get any type of insurance.

   To me the decision is a no brainer…a basic investment in yourself to start high and go higher (on average).

   As far as Social Workers go…they have to be in it for some higher purpose because it sure isn’t for the money. Their perceived utility must be pretty high to put up with so much for so little.

10. Damo Says:
    May 26th, 2007 at 10:32 am     +0

    Paul,

    I hear ya. I was fortunate in that I knew what I wanted to get out of college. So the decisions I made were pretty simple. Generally having a degree is better than not having one so I would try and help him figure out what he likes to do and just go after that.

    Having said that I have a side question which may be a topic for Chad sometime in the future. Growing up my parents, in their own way, tried to introduce me to many different topics and fields. They weren’t brilliant rocket scientists or artsy-fartsy types — just workin’ class joes (like me). They talked to me about engineering careers…medical stuff…military…being a mechanic…all sorts of varied crap.

    I helped my dad work on his car quite a bit…hated it. He talked to me about engineering issues at work and how to solve them. My mom was a draftsperson so showed me her drawings and such. None of that crap stuck…one day my dad brought home a pile of chips and boards and built a computer. That was it…I was struck by how much you could do with a computer (this is late 70s now). I had ideas to write games, etc.

    I was a computer guy from then on.

11. TEX4REAL Says:
    May 29th, 2007 at 1:50 pm     +0

    Now this is an intresting subject, I spell like crap but still make a good living.
    I graduated from HS, but my father did not and he does a load better than I do money wise.
    He would be a text book trade guy that after 15 or more years of the same grind started
    his own company about 180 derees out from what he was trained to do. After 20 years sold off
    his spoils and retired. Then 2 years later after driving himself crazy in retirment started up a new company worked for 6 more years and did it all over again. All without the HS diploma
    Me I’m working on a 15 year career with some college, special training and I
    think the real dollars and sense are in the ownership field. I like the cookie cutter approach
    but it just doesn’t work. Public education is just that general and public “for the masses”
    If more parents where involved with their childrens day to day activities, programs abound for the
    right kids. Face it a good mechanic or plumber is worth his weight in whatever.
    Ever need a Phd to do some strain theory in the middle of the night?
    How about a plumber, ye could use a plumber in the middle of the night from time to time.
    In soceities eyes who is higher on the chain, and I guess where you are on the chain changes your
    perspective no matter how hard you may argue otherwise. Trades people like other trades people
    they snicker at the educated for not having the abilities to do work.
    Trust me I know about this from experience.

12. Paul Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 6:19 pm     +0

    Damo,

    I would like to share my parent’s approach, because I think that it was very effective. By the end of my freshman year, I had failed most of my classes and lost my scholarship. My parents then told me that they would cover tuition IF I made an A or B. They did this by making me pay for the classes at the beginning of the semester. At the end of the semester, they would reimburse me for classes that I had a B in, and they would pay me double the cost of classes that I got A’s in. Before long, I had gone from mostly F’s to mostly A’s. Meanwhile, I had to work to pay living expenses and the upfront tuition. It worked. Rather than becoming a drop-out, I excelled in my major and went to grad school. It may be a good idea to keep this in mind when your kids are in college.

13. Paul Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 6:46 pm     +0

    TEX4REAL,

    I respect anyone who worked hard to get where they are. I have a masters in physics, and it took alot of work to get it. I have a good friend who is a master carpenter, and he worked hard to get where he is. We both respect each other’s occupation. They are both necessary positions in society. Educated people look down on tradespeople, and tradespeople snicker at educated people. It is a vicious cycle, but it does not exist everywhere. I have friends from Germany. In that country, a mutual respect exists between tradespeople and educated people. That is the way that it should be.

14. Tina Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 6:40 am     +0

    Wow I see allot of discussion since i stepped away. I do have some thoughts for to add.

    Tex4Real, I love your comments, and I agree completely… as I do know people who have the gift of trade work. I call it a gift, because it is an artform the excessively over educated do not have, and it is a very important skill. Thank you all who have the gift of Trade work.

    Paul, your comment about your failing school until your parents bribed you for better grades is sad. Obviously you had it in you to get As & Bs… but you were failing until your parents offered you money to do what you already could do, that is really, really sad.

    I did not have the gift of parents. My parents booted me out as a teen. With no financial reward for good grades I still made honor society in high school WHILE working 3 jobs, and I graduated with no family or financial support. I did not have the money for college following high school, and i had no one offering to pay for schooling. So as i hear it chanted that colleged is the holy grail, and EVERYONE should do it kind of miffs me. College is NOT for everyone. YES a person CAN (but not always) make more with a college degree, it is not always the answer some people do not do well in college, some turn into career students, some drop out, many can not afford the money and or time, some have the gift of a trade, etc… College is not the holy grail. It does well for some, but not all, and again not everyone has the money or family support to go to college.

    Following high school i worked 3 jobs at any given time to surrive.. i did not have the time or the extra money for college…. it was shelter and food, so I worked low paying jobs… and yes that was the the restricted option for someone with out a college degree, but I did not have the family support for even high school. Due to my age any tuition assistance looked at my parents income… and they are extremely well off, so again that would hurt me. So if i had the time inbetween 3 jobs to go to college there was no financial assistance for me.

    I still worked through the years and jumped on new challenges. I am self taught and I trained others in several states in what I have done in the past, and in other jobs I trained those above me.

    So Damo the forced concept of college for your kids when they reach that age, well if works great. They are very lucky to have that financial and family support.. I wish them well.

15. TEX4REAL Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 12:25 pm     +0

    Tina,

    Family is a great crutch, not everyone has it or needs it, you don’t need bad parents
    to be on your own it can be a choice. I break up and make up with my family all the
    time. I went years not seeing or speaking to some of them. Money comes and goes family is forever.
    Education is the issue at hand. I believe the government should not have one single thing to do with
    this matter. The Government is the biggest crutch ever invented. People take care of the government
    or it will take care of you. I can not stand the power that government has taken in this country
    we are slowly creeping into the same place our Fore Fathers fought to get us out.

    We are all subjects of a self serving society when will mankind learn.

    Or maybe way to much coffee you decide.

16. Damo Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 3:38 pm     +0

    Paul,

    Love that idea. My dad tried a variant of that in high school. Worked well one semester….until he said “I owe you what?!?!?” :)

    But I’ll tuck it into the parental toolbox to be sure.

    Tina,

    You call it a “forced” concept — it isn’t a “forced” thing if it is not even a topic of discussion.

    You talk about three jobs…while going to high school — you talk about parents being well off… Sounds to me like it is all talk. Being miffed to this day sounds kind of like sour grapes to me. It’s too bad folks aren’t educated about their options earlier on in life.

    You can have the richest parents on the planet and you can still get student loans. You may not be able to get enough to go to Harvard…but there is a *real* university out there that you can afford with just student loans and grants. My parents had to write a letter each year saying I was on my own…that’s all it took.

    Your parents could have done the same. You could have had yourself emancipated. You had options — the fault was with “the system” in not educating you on your options. I was lucky to have semi-decent financial aid folks who sat me down and said “if you do this you’ll get X…if you do that you’ll get Y…once you do it once you get the same amount every year….now lets talk about your student loan options…”

    You worked so hard to get out of high school — you could of worked hard for another four years. You apparently worked hard just to survive and what did you get out of it? Four years of livin’ shitty.

    I’d say say college is good for MOST people…not just some people.

17. Tina Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 5:20 pm     +0

    Paul, awesome comments. I kind of think coffee might be a force of evil (smiles) with all the dependence people think they have on it.. ohwell right? But I agree with your comments there, thank you!

    Damo, the “FORCED” was your own.. see your comments above, I will add them here:
    Because of this my kids will be forced to go to college right out of High School and if they succeed they will make more, on average, then their peers who decide to mow lawns for a living. If college isn’t for them at least I gave them the opportunity

    And Damo about my family, had you a family who never likes you I highly doubt you would be gleeful about your parents either. I am glad you had a loving supportive family but not everyone had one. And aside from the financial aspect of affording college, (loans, aid etc).. when i got out of high school, how do you think rent gets paid, and food is obtained? car insurance etc.. those things had to get paid for, and after paying those items affording the time for college did not fit into my sleep. Now years later is another thing.. but OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL is not something everyone can afford.. There are those who have family support where school and or room & board are covered, but keep in mind NOT everyone had what you had! alrighty!

18. Damo Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 6:04 pm     +0

    …and my point is that it is hardly “forcing” something if it isn’t really a topic of discussion to begin with. Parentally I have to give them the chance. It’s just a given. If they attend and fail horribly then I’ve done what I had to do as a parent.

    You assume too much about my family. You assume support…there was none. You assume room and board was covered….it wasn’t. The “livin’” stuff is just an excuse after the fact…the reality is that everyone has the opportunity but some of us just have to bust our ass for it. I was in that category. I guess I just busted my ass in the right direction.

    As such I have little pity for anyone who gets “miffed” about college because they didn’t have the knowledge to work the system in an appropriate fashion. That isn’t your fault…that’s the fault of the system. Even then if you *really* want something you’ll make it happen.

19. Paul Says:
    June 3rd, 2007 at 6:00 pm     +0

    TEX4REAL,

    Love the comments about government control! Thomas Jefferson is probably rolling aroud in his grave.

20. Paul Says:
    June 3rd, 2007 at 6:52 pm     +0

    Tina,

    Young people need guidance. I was lucky to have my parents. It wasn’t so much that they were paying me to do well, as that they were trying to turn me around. After I lost my scholarship, I payed my way by working a construction job. I told them that I was going to drop out and live on a construction worker’s salary. They knew that I would be happier as a scientist or engineer, and they were right. It isn’t sad, it was just a tactic used to help me figure out what was best for myself. I love working with my hands, but I would have inevitably gotten bored with any trade job. Now, I am very happy in my profession and I have them to thank.

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